INTERVIEW: James Morgenstern of the Atheopagan Society Council

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com

 

S3E39 TRANSCRIPT:

 

Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm your host, Mark,

Yucca: and I'm the other one. Yucca.

Mark: and today we have a very special episode. We're interviewing James Morgenstern, who is on the Atheopagan Society Council.

And so, along with Yucca and myself and a bunch of other people. And so it's just an opportunity to get to know him and ask his ideas about where he sees the community going and how he came to be a part of this community and all that good kind of stuff. So, welcome James.

James: Thanks for having me.

Yucca: We're really happy to have you, so Well, why don't we get started with. you know how, how you found or came to agonism.

James: So, it's kind of a, a, a long journey that started back in like the late eighties like 87, 88, somewhere around in there. And I, I was, I, I was an, an avid reader back then. And I remember coming across like a group of, at a garage sale, this collection of encyclopedias called Man Myth and Magic.

And it was like everything supernatural in the cult from A to Z And I got made fun of a bit in grade school and called Encyclopedia Brown and stuff like that because I like, I, because I read encyclopedias. And so I came across these, bought 'em for like a quarter a book with my allowance and read them all.

And that really sort of piqued my interest in, in the cult and whatnot. And there were there were articles in there about like, Paganism and, and Witchcraft and Wicca and, and what have you. And so I started seeking out books all of this under, you know, the cover of secrecy because I, you know, grew up in the Midwest, in central Illinois.

And all of that stuff was a big no-no. So I. With, I had gone to you know, I grew up in a tiny little town, so we had gone some friends of mine and I had gone with one of their parents into this town, and there was this store in the mall that I went into, I think it was like, it might have been a b Dalton book Sellers, you know, one of those book sellers that's not around anymore.

And I found a copy of Raymond Buckland's, Complete book of witchcraft. And I went through that whole thing. It was like a series of lessons. Anybody familiar with, you know, witchcraft from back in that area is familiar with the big blue book. But it went through the whole self initiation ritual thing that they had at the end of that.

And that was sort of my start on that path. I started reading a lot of Scott Cunningham. He had, you know, a lot of good material for like solitary practitioners and and whatnot. And later on in my, you know, in my adult life I got involved with a this was shortly after I was married, I got involved with a group in Springfield, Illinois called the Edge Perception Collective.

And we put on seasonal public rituals, you know, for the, for the community there in central Illinois. And from there I got involved with the Diana's Grove Mystery School and which was, those folks were fantastic. There's just some really good, you know, kind nice people. And the. It was interesting.

They had like a 200 acre property in the Ozarks and, you know, it was beautiful. Had this, it had been a cattle ranch at one point, and so like the edges of it were forested and there was this big meadow in the center with like a seven circuit labyrinth mode into it. That was huge. And they had all these cabins that had built, had been built on the property by the Amish.

And you know, they did week long intensives and, and weekend you know, seminars and things like that on all sorts of different topics. I took several like drumming classes there with lane Redmond and, and whatnot. And the you know, the whole time though, like, looking back, I, I realized that.

With, in terms of like the belief in like DA and things like that. I was really sort of going through the motions on it. Like, I don't know that I ever actually really believed that, that there were these beings out there. I think a lot of it was me looking for an alternative to what I was in the middle of and sort of, you know, inundated by, and that was, you know, conservative Christianity you know, Midwestern Bible country, you know, kind of kind of folks.

And so I, I, I sort of, I moved to St. Louis in like 2000 and really sort of drifted away from all of that and had this big. Spot in my life, you know? A lot of the stuff that I had done previously, even, you know, even being part of the, of this group and that that community all on my own, you know, was all solo stuff.

Mark: Mm.

James: And a lot of that, you know, took place primarily in, in, in my head. You know, it's the whole like, you know, you develop like a mind palace or whatever they call it these days where you've got this sort of sacred space in your own skull. And that some of that was coping mechanisms and things like that for, you know, mental health issues and, and whatnot.

But but I had this big hole and, and, and that lasted a long time. And I moved to California in like 2013 or 2014. At the beginning of 2014. And I remember like, I don't remember the exact year it was, but I was online and on Facebook, and I don't remember if it was like a suggested group or if I was searching for, you know, some sort of online group to join.

I've got a lot of, I've got friends out here, you know, on the west coast that are all part of this sort of like spooky dark, you know, like, you know, witchy, woodsy, you know, forest people type community musicians and artists and whatnot. And so, lots of pagan stuff being posted by them and, and you know, that whole aesthetic.

So it may have been a recommended group but I found the Athe O Paganism one and I clicked on it and looked at the about page. Read the description and everything, and that seemed like that's, like, that was really kind of where I was at. Like, I wanted, I wanted all the pagan stuff, but I didn't want all of the praying to God's goddesses or offerings to forest, you know, fairies and, and, and things along those lines.

so I joined the group and was just sort of a, a lurker for a while. And then I don't remember exactly how I met you, Mark. I think I, it was, you had posted something about where you lived or something along those lines, and I was like, Holy crap. Like, that's, that's, that's, you know, 20 minutes away, 30 minutes away or whatever.

and I don't remember if I sent you a message or if it was in a comment or something. Like I don't, the details of all that are

Mark: I think he sent me a message as I recall, and we decided to meet for coffee.

James: Yeah. But that was fantastic. And then I read your book and like your whole story of how you came to all this. A lot of that resonated with me cuz I'd been involved with similar groups, you know, in the past, the whole church of all worlds. And you know, I wasn't involved with them at all, but I, I was well aware of them and, and things going on with them.

And then, you know, I wanted to I wanted to take a more active role in the community because. I don't know. I feel like, I feel like everybody should want to take a more active role. You know, you gotta participate in community, you know, on some level. At least that's how I feel, you know, for myself.

And so I, when a call went out for moderators on the group, you know, I, I stepped up to that and and then was a moderator on and off for a couple of years, I think. 

Yucca: A few. Yeah.

James: yeah, recently, recently, you know, stepped down from that again. And then when the Atheopagan Society started coming together, you know, and, you know, we decided to put together an actual, like, council of people, you know, I, I.

Felt the need to be a part of that, you know, on the, on the ground floor.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

James: don't know cuz I, it's, it's really given me a lot in terms of like, helping sort of fill that hole that I had in my life for so long with not having any sort of like, ritual, you know, or spiritual life, you know, it was, I dunno, it was like, I struggle with I struggle with a fair amount of mental health issues, you know, depression, things like that.

And when having that, having a spiritual life and even in my own head now using words like that is, there's a little bit of dissonance because I don't believe in like a spirit world, but I, when I tend to use the word spirit or spiritual, I'm, it's more in the sense of essential.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

James: spirit being the essence of a thing.

You know, and so a spiritual life for me is an essential life. It's a thing that, you know, it's something that's

Yucca: mm.

James: Um, and the, the, a paganism group online and just the, you know, approaching spirituality from that standpoint has, has helped me out a lot. And so I, I wanted to, to, to try to give back on some level as much as I'm able anyway.

Mark: Well, that's great. Thank you for that. Yeah, it's, it's been great for me because you, you are local to get to know you and, you know, become friends. And now of course we have the Northern California Affinity group the Live Oak Circle, and we've been having in-person meetings with a little group of folks.

And to me that's just been wonderful. I've, I've really enjoyed sharing rituals with, with a group like that. 

James: In person is definitely, at least for me personally, is far more rewarding than, you know, online. So if there's a certain, there's a certain distance that I feel, you know, with online interactions and they, they just doesn't feel as personal and meaningful to me. Other people get a lot out of it, you know, I know that we have like the the mixers and things like that, you know, on Saturdays and like on Thursdays or whatever online.

And I know that there are a lot of people who get a lot out of those, and that's fantastic. You know, I think you should get, you should get that community interaction however you can get it. But yeah.

Yucca: well, I really love that we've been able to start building both of those kinds of, of interactions right now as, as we're, we're growing and able to do in person gatherings. Both like we did earlier this spring with the retreat and then with local groups and then the mixers and the text communication, which is what mostly the Facebook discord is.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Yucca: So it's, it's lovely to see that diversity and people being able to kind of plug in, in the way that fits in in their life and, and their particular needs.

James: Yeah.

Yucca: and it seems like James, you've, you've been a big part of a lot of that kind of looking out for and caring for and participating in that online component.

James: Yeah. Like, I feel, I feel very, and one of the reasons I wanted to be like help be a moderator and stuff for the, for the Facebook group was that I feel like I tend to get protective of, you know, the groups that I'm, that I'm part of. It's all, it's like chosen family kind of, kind of situation. And I felt like being a moderator helped, like, put me in a role where I could be more effective at doing that.

Yucca: Mm-hmm.

James: because there's a lot of folks that aren't able to sort of stand up for themselves and you only have so much, aside from just blocking people online you've only got so much that you can do in a group if you aren't a moderator. You know, you don't have the ability to, you know, to shield other people from, you know, abuses and things along those lines.

And not that we've had a huge problem with. Folks like that in the, our fa I feel like out of all of the Facebook groups that I've, that I've been a part of and all of just the social media groups in general that I've been a part of, the Atheopagan group is definitely by far the most friendly and problem free group that I've, that I, especially with, you know, now we've got well over 4,000 members.

Like, it, it, it shocks me on some level that

there wasn't, that there wasn't a lot more moderation issues than there, than there was. We just don't get the trolls. I think a lot of that is, is due in part to like our screening process for people, you know, and and just the, you know, vigilance and the community themselves, like, you know, that even aren't moderators stepping up to, you know, Sort of take charge cuz it's, it's, I feel like it's all of our responsibilities to make sure that we've got a nice, you know, safe, accommodating, friendly community, you know, to be a part of.

You know, and every, every group is gonna have issues, but I feel like our group is, is always working on those, you know, when something comes up, when someone brings something to our attention, something was problematic or something that we, that needs to be addressed that we're, that we, we work on it.

I feel like that effort is an honest one and that, you know, and that's important. But but yeah, it's by far the, the best group I've been a part of. And I, and I think that speaks a lot for the people that are involved.

Mark: I agree. Yeah, I mean, I've, I continue to be amazed by the quality of the community that's come together online, around aop, Paganism, and As you say, with more than 4,000 members, you would imagine that there would be more conflict. And it's not like there's group think because we have really interesting conversations about lots of different things and people have varying perspectives on a variety of different things.

But there's a civility and a a fundamental assumption of good intention on the part of one another that I think is really rare for Facebook. I mean, I don't even go to my main Facebook feed anymore. I just hang out in the atheopagan.

James: yeah, yeah. And it was, it was really great for me at the retreat to get to meet some of those folks in person. you know, cuz you see a name, you see a name and like an icon on online and I don't know, for me that's

Yucca: A real animal person 

James: Yeah, 

Yucca: really right there in front of you.

James: cuz like online there's a, like, I feel like there is sort of a certain degree of anonymity that's necessary because it can just be a dangerous place.

So I don't fault people for not putting pictures of themselves up as like their Facebook photo or whatever. You know, I didn't do it for the longest time. Uh uh, now I don't really care. So it's whatever. But but it's nice being able to put a face to, you know, conversations that I've had with folks and, and things along those.

Mark: So, I have kind of a two part question, I guess, for you, James. The first one is so what do you see your role as being on the Ethiopia Pagan Society Council? What, what do you see as, you know, what are your responsibilities there? What is, what do you see yourself as doing for the community there?

And then the second part of the question is what about the future? What, what sorts of things do you see the society being able to do to foster this community or support it or train it or, you know, whatever. What, what's your vision there?

James: I think in terms of my, my role, like, I feel like I, I try to represent the, the greater community as a whole.

Mark: Mm.

James: Take into consideration, like when we're making decisions and things like that, the needs of, of, of the community as it's been sort of represented to me by my interactions with people on Facebook, you know, in the Facebook group.

And, and to a far, far lesser degree, the, the discord sort of, cuz I, I, I started the, that Discord server I don't, a couple years ago or whatever. And Discord is not my, it's not my thing. It's, you know, it's some people that's totally their jam and that's, and they prefer that over everything else and that's totally fine.

It's just, it was never really my thing, but there was a call for it online and so I just, I had used it previously for like some gaming. And so I was like, well, you know, I'll start a server and we'll see how that happens and how that works. And now it, you know, it's got a, I think a couple hundred people on it.

Mark: I think about 500

Yucca: Yeah,

James: is it really?

Mark: Yeah.

Yucca: It's got some great stuff. Yeah.

Mark: Yeah.

James: I, yeah, like I said, it's, it is wasn't really my thing. I am not a tech savvy person, so, you know, there were got all these people that jumped on it, that were doing Discord stuff all the time and asking me as a, you know, as like the admin there, you know, Oh, can we do this?

Can we do that? And it's like, I have no idea how to do those things. So and I don't have a whole lot of time to learn how to do those things. So like, I, that's a, yeah, that's a whole nother change. But in terms of like my role and what I, you know, what I seem like my responsibilities being like, I, I don't know.

I. I think everybody, I think every group and, and it hasn't been a thing that I, that has been something that I feel like I've needed to worry about because our, our group and our organization has, it's worked a lot differently than a lot of other groups that I, that I'm aware of in the Pagan community and not so many that I've been a direct part of in, in terms of like decision making groups and whatnot.

But I don't know. There was sort of this idea in my head at one point of like, being kind of a watchdog and making sure that things didn't start going down like a hierarchical you know, sort of problematic path. Often happens with those sort of council type groups in various PE communities.

Like I said, I'd been a member of a group in the past. The, the edge of perception, which, you know, all we did was really put on public rituals. That's all we did. We weren't like a, we weren't sort of guiding a community necessarily. So all of our meetings dealt with what are we gonna do for the next, you know, for the solstice or whatever, and you know, who's gonna do what roles.

And you know, how is, you know, how much did we spend on supplies for the last one? How much money do we have in the account for supplies for the next one? And you know, and that sort of thing, we were, we were a not for profit five. I think we had, you know, our 5 0 1 3 c, you know, thing or whatever. So we had to, you know, keep track of receipts and all that good stuff for taxes and but There weren't, so, there weren't really any issues in terms of like power struggles or anything along those lines, you know, people wanting to take control of things necessarily.

At least none that I was aware of, but I definitely know that there are groups that are like that. You get like an individual who is, and that's one of the things like I, I feel I really sort of commend you for Mark, because you, that's, you have not being sort of the founder of, of this whole thing.

You have made, I feel like you've made great strides to not put yourself in a position of. Power and or a position of authority or anything along those lines. You know, you've been pretty good about when people try to appeal to you as an authority on something and say, Well, Mark says this, or whatever.

You're very much, I feel like you've done a pretty good job of, of the whole, like, you know, I'm just like, I'm just another member of the community like you, you know, just because my name's on a book or whatnot, that doesn't mean that, like what I say is, is law sort of thing. And I know that's been an issue.

So there was an, at one point in my head there was this idea of like, kind of being a watchdog for the community if that sort of thing started to happen, to try to be a bull work against that. But that's, but it's never come up. So, that quickly faded into the background as something unnecessary. So I, so mainly I think I, I feel like I'm just there as support. Like I, like I said before, I, you know, I struggle with a lot of mental health issues and what have you. So my, my ability to do things is, is relatively limited. But I do, I, I, you know, I want to do whatever I'm capable of, you know, and take a more active role other than just seeing posts online and hearing about things and, you know, listening to the podcast and whatnot.

And as far as going forward, I'd like to see a lot more opportunities like that provided for the entirety of the community. You know, it's a big community and I think a lot of those opportunities should be like on a, on local levels. You know, like you mentioned before, we've got our local live Oak Circle.

Here in Northern California, which, you know, we've had like, what, like almost a dozen people

Mark: Yeah.

James: I think involved, you know, that have that at least, you know, I've seen, you know, active, we've got our own little discord server

Mark: Mm.

James: and whatnot to help coordinate stuff. And then you know, we've had Facebook members who have posted things about their local meetups, you know, one in Chicago that looked like had a fantastic turnout.

And I like seeing it. It makes me happy to see things like that happening because I, community is something that's really important to me. And I think it's, I think a lot of the reason it's really important to me is, is because of how little direct access I have to it. You know, I'm, I'm sort of isolated out in the redwoods, you know, and So, and community interactions are, are, have become far more important to me.

They're more meaningful to me because I have them, you know, so rarely. So that's an important step going forward, I think, is helping to foster those local communities

Mark: Mmh.

James: to build a greater, you know, broader, you know, general community. The, I thought that the Sun Tree retreat was a, was a fantastic success in terms of like turnout and whatnot.

So I'd really love to see more events like that going forward. Like maybe regional regional ones and then, you know, a like a main sort of national one or whatever here in the States. And it would be fantastic to see. Because we've got members of the Facebook group from all over the world, you know?

And we've got affinity groups for larger affinity groups, for like regional affinity groups for some of those areas. But it'd be great to see them putting together, you know, events and it, and I think a lot of people think if the, if like, Oh, we, if we're gonna do that, we're gonna need all of these things and we're gonna need this awesome space, and we're gonna need, you know, speakers or we're gonna need, It's like, you don't really, you just get together, get together and have a meal, you know, and make it a ritual, you know, be, be mindful of the various parts of the meal that you're, you know, as, as they're, as they're served or consumed or whatever.

Or get together and, you know, if you're into drumming and stuff, you have a drum circle or sing some songs together or, you know, just do some, do something. As a community and it'll grow from that. You don't have to have like a fancy convention space or, you know, retreat center to go to or something along those lines.

But I think building those communities is important because we, we do better together. You know, we, we move forward better, faster, more stronger together than we do, you know, as individuals. And some people, you know, social interaction is not a thing for them and they don't do well in groups and that's fine.

You can totally do it by yourself. But, you know, I feel like as a, as a community though, moving forward, like these smaller local localized groups are really.

I think that the next best step forward.

Mark: Hmm. I think that's really well said about community and humanity as a social animal. You know, we, we get e even those of us that are very introverted will usually get something out of social interaction. They may not be able to take very much of it. But there's a, there's a sort of a, an energizing or a charge that comes with interacting with other people who see you and are authentic and open and kind and, you know, fostering that kind of a climate is, it's super important to me and it seems. That's what people are gravitating to in, in the online communities is like, wow, these people are nice and they're thoughtful and they're interesting and they, and they're rational and and they are open to the idea of secularizing the world in, you know, in ways that are moving and impactful. So, yeah.

Yeah. That's very cool. I didn't realize that you had joined the council with the idea of being sort of a watchdog on, you know, on the power dynamics, but I'm, I'm glad to hear that you haven't felt that was necessary.

James: Yeah. I mean that was sort of, it wasn't like a main reason, you know, the main reason was like, I, I wanted to be a part of it. I, you know, I wanted to be a part of, I wanted to give back, you know, cuz I had gotten quite a bit out of, you know, the online community and, and whatnot. And wanted to give back beyond just being a moderator on the Facebook group.

And the, the whole like watchdog thing was sort of a secondary, a secondary thing, you know, one of those creeping things in the back of my head. And it was like, Oh, I've, like, I've seen groups like this come together before with really good intentions and then a cult of personality forms around one person.

And and then it all falls apart. And I didn't wanna see that happen. You know, like I said, I, I feel, I feel kind of protective of our community. , which can have its own drawbacks because I, I, there are times when I'm feeling probably too protective and might see threats where there aren't any. And that's, you know, that's, that's my own shoot to deal with.

The yeah, I think other things that we could do, like I, I, I think I probably mentioned previously about you know, we've got members of the community who probably are a little isolated and not as able and like some sort of like, outreach program or something along those lines, you know, to bring resources to those people.

You know, I think this, this podcast has obviously been a great. Because you know, like you had mentioned to me previously about like the number of new members coming to the Facebook group because they heard the podcast which is fantastic, you know, but that's one of those things that like is of, it's available to everybody all over the world, you know, You know, you don't have to be on a specific social media platform or whatnot.

This podcast is available on, you know, numerous different podcast platforms and everybody's got, and I think network, maybe possibly networking more with other similar like-minded groups.

Yucca: Mm-hmm.

James: You know, I think that might be a good step in the right direction. Cuz you know, In the end to get sort of philosophical, we're all in this together.

Yucca: Yeah.

James: that's not just like the a o paganism group online. And that's not just, you know, our, our local circles. It's, you know, everybody we're, and you know, we might not all completely agree on things all the time, but we, none of us get out of this alive. So we should all work together to make, to make the experiences as, as as pleasant as possible.

Yucca: Hmm.

Mark: Yeah.

James: and that, you know, and that in that involves a lot of work. And not, not necessarily like physical footwork type stuff, but like personal work, you know, for each of us. Things like Like dealing with issues of racism and ableism and things along those lines. You know, that's, that's stuff that has to be worked on, on a personal level.

And you know, we all have a lot of, I think a lot of us the vast majority of us have a lot of internalized, you know, issues with those things. Things that have become normalized for us because it's just, they're, they just are things that have never been an issue. You know, it's a thing we've talked about in the Facebook group.

Paganism in general for the, for a long time was a primarily white thing,

Yucca: Mm-hmm.

James: And and so I think a lot of people of color and whatnot really felt it was inaccessible to them,

Mark: Yeah. Or that they were unwelcome.

James: or that they were unwelcome. Exactly. Because there's still this huge trend, and that's why I'm I really. One of the things that I really like about Atheopagan and that that drew me to it, is that it's not based in a culture, a preexisting culture. It's not based around a preexisting set of traditions. You know, it encourages, you know, a DIY approach. You know, create your own rituals, create your own traditions, you know, start new ones. Don't, you know, like we, it's not the goal to recreate some lost civilization or culture, or to live in, you know, a a, a pretend past that never really existed.

Cuz that's what most of these groups, you know, I feel like to some degree do. And it's not about escapism either,

Yucca: Mm-hmm.

James: Which is a thing that I found. I've gotten a lot of flack in the past for, for bringing the issue up in groups that I've been a part of that I feel like a lot of people were, you know, they'll be a part of a group that espouses like, you know, justice or something along those lines.

I'm not gonna name any groups in particular. But they'll espouse values like justice. But then when issues of justice are brought up, people, you know, start going on the whole, like, why do you gotta make this political? It's like,

uh,

how is it not, How is that not like everything is political. If it involves people, it's

political.

So, You know, every aspect of our lives is affected by politics. You know, nobody lives in a.

Yucca: Mm-hmm.

James: from the rest of the world. So literally every aspect of our life is, has been affected or is constantly affected by politics. Whether it be the laws that we're living under or the regulations we have to abide by when doing things to our homes or you know, our yards, you know, down to like HOA organizations with how tall your grass can be and crap like that. Um, it's all politics, you know, And so, and I understand like people who get tired of hearing about hearing all the arguing

Yucca: Mm-hmm.

James: what have you, and I think that's primarily, it seems to be primarily an American issue, you know, a US issue. But you know, everybody knows what's going on in this country, you know, right now and has been for a while.

So, you know, the whole world knows the sort of situation we're living in. So I think it's understandable that people are burnt out. . And, but most of those people who are like, Why do you gotta make it political, are the ones who aren't really all that negatively affected by politics.

Mark: Right. They're 

James: tired of hearing people argue about it because it interrupts their peace and quiet and they come into these groups because they're trying to escape rather than, you know.

But for me, like I said, a spiritual life is an essential life and as an essential part of life, it's politics is unavoidable

Mark: Mm.

James: cuz that's an essential part of life. You can't exist in the world without, with other people, without politics. So, you know, that's I think working on those issues on an individual level is important.

And working on those issues as a community, you know, supporting each other. You know, I, I feel like our community has been really good in like the comment sections and stuff on Facebook of offering up resources when issues come up

and someone says, Well, I don't know how to do that, or I don't, you know, or where do I go to find that information?

There's usually always someone who's got a list of links or books to read or, you know, or, or YouTubers to follow, or, you know, something along those lines that are, you know, resources. And then it's incumbent upon us to take personal responsibility then at that point, and read those things, you know, or, you know, or, or, or look up those papers or, or what have you.

And you know, it so yeah, I the whole escapism thing, that's

Mark: Yeah, we've, we've talked about that here before. I mean, it's, it's tricky because you can use sort of fantastic language and, and framing to. Make your life a lot as a tool to make your life a lot more enchanted. Right.

James: Oh yeah.

Mark: But you need to keep in mind, you know, it's that ability to recognize the difference between metaphor and reality.

You know 

James: And I, I'm a, I'm a big fan of like, the myth poetic, you know, as, as a tool, you know, for, like you said, re enchanting, you know, your life. But there's a, it be, it starts to become escapism when that becomes the, your preferred realm to exist in. Cuz it's not a real place. And you live in the real world and there's no getting around that.

Mark: sure. When you start blaming fairies for things,

James: Or

Mark: It's a problem.

James: right, or you know, like a thing you had mentioned, and I think you had mentioned it in, in your book, you know, with people like excusing behaviors, because you know, it's the will of the gods or, or whatnot. And the spiritual bypassing that takes place, you know, where people are like, Oh, well the reason this bad thing is happening in your life is because, you know, maybe you've angered some spirits or something along those lines.

And, which is really just a fancy way of victim blaming at that point. 

Yucca: It's a way of not taking responsibility,

James: yeah, exactly. And so that's, that was going back to like the first question. You know, that's, that's another thing that sort of drew me to Athe o Paganism, was that, that that wasn't a part of all this. There was no, there was no road.

For that sort of approach to things, you know, personal responsibility and and, you know, taking steps in our own sort of growth and development, you know, are are built in. And that's that's very appealing to me and I think needed, you know, in.

Mark: Yeah. One thing that I've really appreciated about many people in the Pagan community, I certainly wouldn't say all of them, but many people in the Pagan community, is that there is this kind of dedication to personal growth, you know, to, to doing the work to become the best people they can and. I just see that as essential.

You know, it's like if, if the goal is excellence in how we interact with one another in the world that we create in our engagement with the rest of the natural world in all of that, then it, you know, it starts with the wrestling that's happening in your head and, you know, figuring that stuff out and getting as clear and as kind and as balanced as we can.

And so it, so that was one of the things that drew me back towards Paganism. And after I got sick of it, you know, there were those people that were living in a fantasy world and were, you know, causing harm out of that. But then there were these other people who were just amazing. Humble, fantastic, incredible people.

And I wanted those people . I, you know, I, I wanted to go back and get them. So that's, that's been part of what this has been about.

James: yeah. I've had, and like, you know, I, I skipped over in my story about how I got to aio Paganism. I skipped over a lot of the stuff that I got involved in, looking for ways of like making meaning in the world. That were more solo like, I got into Chaos Magic, and I got into the, you know, I was involved in the Lima for, for a while,

Mark: Mm-hmm.

James: you know, joined some initiatory orders and, and what have you.

And know, it was all, you know, brain hacking, trying to figure out how to make myself that better person, you know, that you just mentioned. And doing it on your own by yourself is often very difficult. And so I, I think having a community that's all also working towards that. And like you said, not everybody involved in those groups was good.

But there were definitely some jewels, you know, that stood out. But for some of them, like the, the, the, the Leic community there was a lot of just. I, I pretty much left all of, I left the Lima because of a lot of the just really horrible, toxic stuff. And I've always been a proponent of the idea that whatever it is that you're championing, whatever cause that you're standing behind, whatever beliefs that you are espousing, look around at the other people who are going, Yes, that's what that I'm on, pa on.

I'm right there with you. I'm on the same page as you are. You believe what I believe and I absolutely support you. And if those people are neo-Nazis, and if those people are, you know, just you know, white nationalists and racists and terrible people, then you need to, you need to rethink these ideas that you're championing.

Cause if they're saying, Oh, no, no, I totally agree with you, I don't think that's a good thing. and, So, you know, I, I, I've had these conversations to get political. I've had these conversations with folks who, you know, espouse like conservative values and whatnot, and they're like, Yeah, but you know, I don't agree with those guys, but yeah, but they agree with you.

Like you don't agree with those guys cuz you don't, because they're on, you're just sort of cherry picking, you know, the things of their ideology that they, that you don't agree with. And I don't know that you're actually looking at, at what they believe and what you believe with an unbiased, you know, viewpoint.

And I think that your ideas and their ideas line up far more than you're willing to admit to. And because on some level you do agree with them because if they're agreeing with you, how is that not the same thing? You know, if you say XYZ and they're like, Yes, xyz, and then you say, Oh yeah, but I don't agree with their xyz, but it's it's the same xyz.

Then, you know, I think that needs some reflection and some rethinking. And so, yeah, I don't know where I was going with that. I've got my mid-afternoon coffee, caffeine hitting my, hitting my head and it's sending me on spirals. Yeah. What were we saying?

Yucca: We had been talking about the gyms in the community, and you'd said that you'd kind of skipped over some of the, the,

James: yeah,

Yucca: the various groups that you'd been involved in and stopped being involved in.

James: yeah. Cuz I think when, when, for me it was like a matter of percentages, you know, if there's like three or four people in the community that are absolutely wonder. People and the, the overwhelming majority of the community is not, then that's, then you, you can't, you can't it, I personally can't stay in a community like that.

I can't stay involved with a group like that. Like I, it, it's always terrible to have to sort of leave a group because you know you're gonna miss those people probably, especially if you developed any sort of personal relationship with them. And you can always stay, you know, connected with those people outside of that group.

But being part of the group itself is just not an option any longer. Again, I think, I feel like you gotta look around at the people who are, who are standing behind you and chanting along with you and see what sort of flags they're waving and, you know, if those are flags that strike you as you know, bad things, then maybe you should think about.

You know why it is that they're chanting along with you. And I, and it's mostly been like, you know, events that have taken place here in the US over the last, like six years or so that have really sort of brought that sort of idea to a head for me. You know, or also if you don't, the people who are on your side are championing ideas that actively seek to harm or impede the lives of people you care about, then maybe you should rethink those ideas also, because if you really care about those people, why would you want to promote the things that are going to hurt them, you know?

And I feel like in our, to bring it back to, you know, our community, I feel like we are, I feel like we're, we can always do better, but I feel like we're doing a pretty good job. And that is, and that's not to sort of say, you know, to let us off the hook in any way, shape or form. The work is, the work is constant and ongoing and not quick.

You know, there is no fast like flip a switch and suddenly you're not racist, you know, or you flip a switch and suddenly you're not ableist anymore. You know, those are, they're patterns of behavior that come about from living in a system that promotes all of those things and oftentimes rewards those things.

So, you know, working out of those situations, those methods of thought and whatnot is a. It's a lot of deep work, but I feel like as a community we can support each other in that work. And that's what part of what I was saying about when conversations like that have come up on the Facebook group, you know, people offering up resources, you know, books, you know, books to read and things along those lines.

I know we've got, there's like a book club like an atheopagan book club and I think that they've read some, some pretty good books, you know, in, in that regard on some of those issues. I definitely, I'm not a part of it cuz reading books for me is a, it's a whole thing that's gets too complicated to get into right now.

But but I definitely encourage them to read more of those books that help work on those issues. You know, everybody likes to read, you know, the fun books. Things like gathering loss is a popular one. Or what's the other, the

Mark: reading Sweet Grass.

James: Yeah. Braiding, sweetgrass. Those books, those books come up a lot in conversations.

and those are great. Yeah.

Yeah, they're great. I, I'd like to, you know, I'd like to see more opportunities for for unlearning the sort of problematic tendencies that, that, you know, the overwhelming majority of us tend to have.

Mark: Mm.

James: cuz that makes the community more accessible to the folks, you know, like I mentioned before, that felt it, you know, this sort of spirituality inaccessible before,

Mark: Mm-hmm.

James: Yeah. And, and build your own tradit. You know, around that sort of thing cuz that can help reinforce all of that and

Mark: You know, I, I need to put in a word about that. I, I wrote a blog post probably four or five months ago now. In which I agree for myself, I, I want to create new culture. But I can see how for people of color, they might want to draw culture from their ancestors forward. Um, and so, you know, when I talk about, when I talk about Ethiopia, Paganism being a modern thing that just got started in the early two thousands, and it's not rooted in any culture that really comes out of the fact that I just designed it for me and I'm this white guy you know, this sort of Mongol American white guy.

And I think. I've, I've since done more thinking about that, and I think that it's really important for us to acknowledge that there's a place for drawing indigenous traditions, drawing traditions of African ancestry, you know, drawing those, those pieces forward into the ritual practices of people that come out of those, those ethnicities.

James: I, I absolutely agree. I think on, on a personal level, I think, you know, for your own like personal ritual and spiritual life, I think drawing on, on, on your heritage is, is absolutely, although I don't like using that word, heritage I

think drawing on that is Backgrounds. is, is, is important and can be really sort of empowering and enriching and whatnot.

I think it, where the issue comes in is when the overwhelming majority of a group comes from a particular background

Mark: Yeah.

James: and they try to make those aspects of their background, the primary focus of the community's background. So like, you know, taking a recent holiday for example. So that's an Irish thing, you know, that's a Gaelic culture cultural thing.

Yucca: Mm.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

James: so everybody's like, everybody talks about sow and it's like, I mean, it's not, it's not like a solar festival, you know, it's not one of the cross quarter you know, holidays that is tied to an astronomical. Or anything along those lines, like the solstice and equinoxes. So it is a very sort of culturally specific thing, and not everybody celebrates that.

And so when everybody's almost sort of insisted be called that because Halloween is too much of a, I mean, it's, it's even got its own cultural sort of baggage, you know, in terms of like all Hall's Day being, you know, kind of a, a, a more Christian centric holiday and the whole, the whole co-opting of, of, you know, pagan holidays by Christianity idea and those sorts of things.

But I think a lot of people, when, when the community, when the greater community refers to it as a specific cultural thing like sa, those people who did not come, did not grow up in that background. Feel isol, you know, separated

and they feel like they're not able to take, they feel excluded. So I feel like as a greater, you know, sort of global community or whatever, coming up with new non culturally specific things is great.

And then incorporate in your own personal rituals and whatnot, and even your own local group rituals, incorporate aspects of the, of, of your own background into that. And then your group can each, each person can bring their own cultural background into the mix. And you have this, you know, lovely bouquet of, of mixed flowers, you know, that everybody can enjoy.

The but yeah, I think that when people lean into those sort of traditional ideas of the holidays, You know, of our, like, you know, that can be one of the things that isolates people who have traditionally been sort of excluded from these sort of circles, and it makes us less inclusive. You know, I personally celebrate sound because

That's my background.

You know, I'm 93% Scottish and Irish and with a smidge of, you know, other, you know, I'm a, I'm a American mut, you know, with a blend of, of European backgrounds. And but I wasn't raised in any of those cultures, you know, that's a, so that's a thing. One of my.

I don't wanna say pet peeves cuz that's not what it is. One of my issues that I struggle with a lot of times is I don't believe that for the most part Americans have in general, white America doesn't have a recognizable, consistent culture or cultural background to draw from. Which I think is one of the reasons why so many folks look to, like Ancient Ireland and Ancient Scotland or ancient Germany and you know, or Scandinavia, they look to Asat true, you know, because of their roots and their heritage and they, or they look to, you know, like the Celtic sort of stuff because of their, you know, their ancestry.

It's like, that's great, but you likely weren't raised with any of those traditions, assuming those traditions are real at all. And so, In a way that's sort of a, it's a hot button topic and I'll probably get flack for it and people will talk about me. But I feel like in a way that's sort of still a matter of cultural appropriation cuz you weren't raised in that culture and there are people who legitimately went through terrible things because of their connection to that culture. They were prohibited from practicing just like here in the United States with the, with, you know, indigenous peoples being legally prohibited from pr, from practicing, you know, you know, uh, their, their ancestral traditions and what whatnot to step up.

Having not gone through any of that and just adopt those things and say, Well that's, you know, that's my, that's, you know, my heritage. It's like you're, I. I guess blood wise down the road, always, you've got that connection to people who participated in that. But you, you never did. You're, you know, that's not part of your, your culture for the overwhelming, not for everybody.

Obviously there are exceptions. People who are like first generation Americans and whatnot. They may have relatives who who carried some of some older traditions and stuff forward. But this idea of participating in these like ancient traditions, like, I mean, it's,

Yucca: I think it doesn't necessarily just have to be first generation either. I mean, there, you know, there's a,

James: but those traditions have to have been carried forward. Like, I feel like you need to have been raised in the culture to, to really, because otherwise you're, you are participating in a thing without, without any sort of, you know, you're participating in a thing that other people were punished for without.

The threat of punishment, you know, and without having gone

through those 

Yucca: I, think it's really very specific to different ones. I mean that some, some times when those ancestors were forced to stop, Doing tho having those traditions. You know, my, my father's first language, he was not allowed to speak that outside of the home. And his, you know, his, his mother wasn't allowed to speak it.

So I wasn't, I didn't get that language from him. Right. But, but there's still a connection that I have to that culture, right? Or, you know, and, and so for instance, my, my child is relearning the language even though there's a generational gap between, you know, what she was, how she's been raised, the culture that she was raised in, and, and wanting to like to rebrace, right, to reclaim and rekindle some of that.

James: And I think as long as, as, as those things are being passed down with the knowledge of, of the struggle that people went through regarding those things, like how the, how the, you know, and that's, you know, the reason that you're doing it. But I think a lot of that is disregarded when people just sort of pick up a book on Celtic paganism or something along those lines, and they think that they're participating in these like ancient Celtic rituals and whatnot, which is

Yucca: My personal pet peeve around that is when it gets all lumped into one culture, it's like, wait, but, but we're a lot of different cultures, you know?

James: I've been involved in Drewry and things like that, and there's this idea of like this Dr. Reconstructionism and whatnot, which I think is. The fact of the matter is, is we don't know what any of the, there was nothing written down and

we don't know what was practiced. So these like ancient rights or ancient rituals, they're not ancient.

They're all new modern inventions. And there's that zero evidence that, you know, and there's a lot of hearsay and people are like, Well, no, this was passed down. Word of mouth. It's like, yeah. And we've all played telephone, we've all played that game. And there's a good chance that the way that you're doing things is absolutely nothing like what people did then.

You know, and you've got the influence of Christianity and things like that. And to think that, to think that, like, I don't know. I think the assumption that, like the monks that wrote down a lot of this stuff, when they were encountering these new cultures, you know, as they were, were coming into the areas that they weren.

Repainting and reinterpreting and just straight up lying about things. I think I, I don't think that's an honest approach to, to what that is. So, 

Mark: Well, and, and James, this also goes to the lionization of the ancient, right? I mean, there's that whole idea that because something is old, that it's got a deep validity to it. And that's, that's one that I just. Honestly, I don't go with, I mean, to me, cultures are valid just because they're valid and it doesn't matter whether they started recently or, and then, then there are cultures that aren't so valid, like Joseph Smith's arrangement that has now taken off and has many followers all over the world that you know, the values of, which I find really problematic. But just because something is new doesn't make it invalid. And just because something is old doesn't make it valid. But particularly for people where there's been genocidal effort to extinguish the culture, I think it is really important to be able to say to someone who's, you know, grandfather and father were, you know, grandparents and, and parents were not allowed to speak their native language, that they are still entitled to relearn that language and restart those cultural traditions again.

James: Sure, I think. But I think that a lot, and I think a lot of it is for me personally, that's it. It's all continued upon intent.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

James: if you're, if I think if you're going to do that, then you need to be learning about the struggles that they went through. You need to be informing yourself about the reasons why this is an issue, you know?

It's like, you know, the, it's, for me, it's like the, the whole like, you know, When it comes to, like in, in indigenous folks, you get the person who does their 23andme DNA test and they get the thing that says, Oh, you're 0.05% Native American. And they're like, Oh, cool. Well, I'm just gonna start practicing Cherokee, you know, traditions or, or whatnot cuz you know, well I'm part, you know, I'm part Native American and what, and, and not learning why that's a, why that's a problem.

Mark: Yeah.

James: It's like if you're, I, you know, because in all likelihood, you, you, you really, the only connection you have is a genetic, is a genetic connection to those, you know, to those folks because you've not, you know, I don't know. It's a, it's a, it's a complicated. It's definitely not cut and dry. There are definitely, you know, exceptions to the rule and, and, and all of that good stuff. There's, I come from a, you know, a line of people who are very, very far removed from any of that. I, the, the research that I've done on my own family, you know, I got as far back as like the 15 hundreds to some, you know, Sept of SCOs who, you know, the, the, the McCulloughs or, or whatnot.

And they were like a, they didn't have their own tartan, which was a, which was a pretty modern invention. They didn't have their own, you know, sort of clan, steel and motto or insignia or anything. There were like a vassal clan of some other larger clan, but. I wasn't raised with any of that. My grandparents weren't raised with any of that.

My great grandparents weren't raised with any of that. You know, if anything, there's more Appalachian you know, traditions and culture, which is a mishmash of, of, you know, a number of things. Because the farther you get from the source, the more diluted those things sort of become, the more integrated with other, you know, cultures and, and, and traditions and whatnot.

Those things become and they become their own thing, you know? So like, I feel like for me, like I've, I've, I've tried to educate myself on the struggles of those people from my background who were barred from like my Irish ancestors who were barred from speaking Irish, you know, by the English in my.

I try to educate myself about that. And I try not to just take it for granted that I'm just allowed because my, you know, my grandmother's last name was Bailey, you know, and I think that there's the overwhelming majority of people that I have encountered in the Pagan community. That's really the sort of approach.

There's this romanticized like idea of like ancient Celtic Ireland, you know, that people pursue. And and it goes, it goes back to the whole escapism thing for

me. And you know, I think a lot of people are what draws a lot of people to modern paganism. And the new age movement is a dissatisfaction with the way the world is right now and a lack of sort of, Lack of meaningful internal life you know, to to help give them a sense of comfort and whatnot in, you know, the, the sort of times that we're having. And I think that there's that appeal to, it's the reason we read, you know, that's the reason we read fantasy books and things like that, you know, So for a brief time we can live in a world that is not this one.

Mark: Yeah, but this one is so amazing.

Yucca: Yeah.

James: it really is. You open your eyes and you look at the world around you and you see like really look and see the various processes taking place on the.

Smaller levels, you can just keep going. You know, like, Oh, well why does that happen? And there's a whole process involved and it's like, and then you can take a piece of that process and say, Well, why does that happen? And there's this whole other process involved, and it's this like fractal rabbit hole that, you know, winds up down in some quantum, you know, wormhole thing

Mark: Some probabilistic. Weird.

James: Yeah.

Mark: Yeah,

James: until we're just speculating, because we really don't know, because we are physically incapable of seeing any more detail from that for now. And you can do the same to the greater scale, you know, because the immensity of this universe and reality in general, as you know, is astounding and incredibly humbling.

For me to contemplate. I've spent many a night lying on my back as a kid. I had, I built a skateboard ramp for myself, and there would be times when I would lay down on the deck of that skateboard ramp and living in rural America, there wasn't a lot of street lights and things like that to obscure my view of the sky.

And spent a lot of time laying, just looking up at the stars in the moon and whatnot, and

always feeling that sensation of sort of being held to the earth.

Mark: Hmm.

James: Like at any moment I could fall off of it

Yucca: Hmm mm.

James: into the, you know, the sky, you know, up into the, that vastness, because what is up

Mark: Mm-hmm.

James: that's arbitrary you know, it's in relation to where, you know, to where the ground is. That's up.

Mark: Yeah.

James: But in the, in the schema things, there is no up.

There's no down. It just, we have to put these sort of descriptions on things to help us make sense because of how limited we are in, in our, in our perception. But I think going back to yet another thing that drew me to a, the o paganism is that whole idea of like, that's, I'm, I'm part of all of that. That's, that, that craziness, that just overwhelming levels of complexity. And like we talked you know, yesterday, mark, about the human brain

and how, how little we really know about how it operates. This chunk of fat and water and whatnot that sits inside, you know, this bone on the top of our head or our bodies.

Excuse me. Throat thing happening. The, the overwhelming, like, I don't know the awe that sets in

Yucca: Mm-hmm.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

James: the, you just, there are times when it just takes my breath away. And it's the appreciation of that and knowing that every other person who's part of the, you know, not just part of our community, but every other person in the entire world is also part of that.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

James: And if there's anything that connects us, that's, it's that, you know, we're all part of this sort of greater mechanism. I don't know that like, I guess you could call it an organism if you wanted.

Yucca: Mm-hmm.

James: You know, I guess it all depends on per. , but we're all tiny, tiny, tiny little pieces of this huge thing that operates in a relatively specific manner.

Mark: Mm.

James: even though it seems like, you know, at times all of the stuff is so random and whatnot. That's sort of the point, is that that's how it works, is that there's no sort of predetermined path. No one has laid it all out, you know, and mapped everything out. Like what's the point of that? You know? Excuse me, my throat.

So

Yucca: Yeah. Well, I'll, Yeah.

James: having me on. 

Yucca: Yeah. So thank you James.

This has been, This has been amazing.

Mark: It has, it's the, I mean, we've wandered into all these really essential subject matters about, about our path and about our community, and it's just been a really great conversation. Thank you.

James: Yeah, thank you for, for tolerating my, my ramblings. 

Yucca: Well, thank you for sharing them with us. We really appreciate it. Oh,

James: my pleasure.

Mark: And we'll see you all next week. Everybody. Have a great week.

 

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