Self Care During the Holidays

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S2E44 TRANSCRIPT:

Yucca: Welcome back to The Wonder Science-Based Paganism. I'm your host, Yucca.

Mark: I'm Mark. 

Yucca: And this week we are talking about self-care about prioritization boundaries around the holidays.

Mark: Yeah. Basically how to get through the next six weeks. 

Yucca: Yeah. With all of the wonderful things that come along with this time of year. There's also some, some challenges. Especially when it comes to being able to take care of ourselves and, know, be the person that we want to be in that.

Mark: Right. Right. And I think that a lot of that has to do with expectations from family. And friends' friends can also have expectations of our time and our attention and that kind of thing. And this particularly falls heavily on women who end up being expected to cook stuff and be the ones who wrangle the kids and do Shopping and all that kind of stuff. and it's utterly unfair and it can lead to a real sort of burden. On what should be really a time of celebration, a time when we're, we're enjoying the winter solstice and everything around it, and

trying to have a holiday 

Yucca: yeah. 

Mark: know, 

Yucca: And this is a really interesting year because for a lot of people they're trying to do makeup because of last year. Right. Let's make up for so much was missed last year and being like, okay, so we've got to go all out this year or, but then still, also, you know, trying to be safe and responsible. And there's just such, there's just even more added on top this year than there typically is during this time.

Mark: Yeah, there is. I really feel that and of course That's showing up and kind of creating more nervousness in all kinds of ways, whether it's that the supply chains for presents are, are backed up and broken or, 

Yucca: Or booze. I was reading an article today about how there's not going to be enough of whatever, you know, 

Mark: oh wow. Our society will grind to a 

Yucca: whatnot. Yeah. 

There's a lot of drinking this time of year. 

Mark: Oh, there is. Yeah.

And we're going to talk about that some later. The, so the, you know, there's. There's that pressure on the one hand to try to really do it up this year, because we were so locked down last year. And then also there are constraints. We've got a new variant of the Corona virus that is causing some concern.

There are all these sort of economic and supply chain issues. And so it could be. Even a harder to deliver on that expectation of really doing it up. Right. And all of that adds up to stress. And what this episode is really about is how to minimize your stress and try to turn these holidays into something that you're actually celebrating and enjoying.

Instead of just kind of going through the motions and working like crazy in order to do what you think you're supposed to do. 

Yucca: Yeah. So I think a really good place to start is thinking about what these holidays are for you. Right. And what is in an ideal world, what would you want it to be? Like, what is, what are you trying to achieve? What are the things that really, really matter to you? What are the things you value out of it?

And starting from there? Right. Not necessarily what everybody's expecting from me, but what is it that is really matters to you and the wellbeing and the wants and hopes of other people can be included in that, but it needs to start with what are you trying to achieve?

Mark: Right, right. For example Nemea, my partner, and I decided many years ago to dispense with presence. We're just not doing presence anymore because we already have plenty of stuff. And when we need something, we get it. And so instead of knocking ourselves dead, You know, running around, trying to acquire things. And instead we just take things that we value and put them under the tree and they remind us of that. We, we live well and. So to me, the part that's really important about celebrating the winter solstice is the, a lot of it is around the decor. That really makes the season for me in many ways, the decor and the food. And so, you know, having a tree and we have this wonderful collection of, you know, Ornaments that are animals from nature and antique ornaments from the 1940s and just charming sort of old world kind of looking things with the occasional exception, like a doctor who Tardis got to have that on the tree.

I mean, you know, that's what makes it magic, right? 

Yucca: Yeah.

Mark: So the, the decoration and the. You know, putting up lights and that kind of stuff is really important to me. And so recognizing that we've been able to sort of create holiday traditions that are mostly kind of low impact that give us lots of opportunity to just sort of laze around and still feel like we're really celebrating the holidays in a rich way. 

Yucca: Yeah, I love that idea with the tree. Do you, do you wrap them in any way or you just sort of display them?

Mark: We just display them?

and they're illuminated by the lights on the tree which we use all The little incandescent white Christmas lights. So it, they look like stars or something, right. We, we might use colored lights outside the house, but we would only use the, the white ones on the tree itself, more like the Victorian candles or whatever.

And Yeah.

it's just, it's very charming. You know, one of the things that happens when you're doing that is. You kind of look around and go, oh Yeah. we have that thing that thing's really cool. You know, I've got African art and I've got, you know, Southwestern pottery and, you know, just things that I've accumulated over time that are, you know, really kind of fascinating things.

And they have stories behind them. And I like to put them under the tree and remember the stories and remember how I got them and all that kind of thing.

Yucca: Yeah. So it sounds like you've identified at the parts of the, the season that are really key for you and your household and that you're, you're doing things that are going to encourage those particular things.

Mark: Yes. And that are going to encourage the particular feelings that I'm trying to get to for celebrating the holiday that, that cozy cared for. Well fed sometimes a little tipsy, 

Yucca: Yeah.

Mark: Safe at home from the cold sheltered warm, loved feeling that the winter solstice Christmas ish.

Yucca: Winter. 

Mark: Winter.

time holidays think can be.

And what but what I've done is I've prioritized such that some of the most stressful of those things are, are off the table. Now I want to put in a word right now, though, for, for families, with kids, I wouldn't do what we do. 

Yucca: Yeah.

Mark: I think it's cruel to not have presence when all the other children in the world are getting presents. So it's, you know, that that's an important consideration. We, we don't have kids And so we don't need to do that. And so if you do then great that. But you 

Yucca: very soon we're going to be coming back to the kids topic. So I know quite a few of you have asked about that in the email and we, we have some guests that are going to be coming on, and we're really excited to talk about that with you. So.

Mark: Yeah, that's next week and it's going to be a really great episode. I'm So.

excited about it. 

Yucca: Yeah 

Mark: so it's this prioritization thing. And of course, a lot of people, especially folks who are kind of completionist, you know, the kind of people who want to have every one of the collection there are a lot of folks who feel like they have to do everything in order for the holidays to be perfect.

And honestly, I, I really encourage you. You know, make a decision, which is gonna add to my life more right now. Is it sitting down and watching a holiday movie or is it destroying my kitchen, baking something that I then have to clean up from? And maybe the answer is the latter because of the good feeling that you'll have by giving baked goods to friends and loved ones, but maybe it's not.

And it's Okay.

Just to sit down with a glass of wine and watch a thing with your loved ones and. I feel a good feeling about the season. 

Yucca: Yeah. Yeah. So I think the key here is not, it's not feeling like you've got to do what somebody else thinks is the important thing, but what is important to you and being okay with going no. Do you know what that, this other thing that I'm being asked or I feel pressured to do, isn't going to be, isn't going to be the most feeding to me.

This other thing is, or maybe there's an element in this other thing that's stressful for me, but it's really important. I really value it. So what else can I do to make that easier for me? What can I do to make sure that I'm still taking care of, even if I'm doing the hard thing, right? Maybe, maybe you do want to go and see the big gathering with your family and friends or something like that, but it's, but it's draining to you.

You're an introvert. So what can you do? To support yourself, even though you're going to do the hard thing.

Mark: Right. And I think that it helps to start with, to do some really formal prioritization, you know, get a piece of paper and write down all the holiday stuff. And then. Which are the A's in, which are the BS and which are the CS, right? Because then in a given moment, when you feel like, oh my God, this list is so long, how am I ever going to get through all of it?

You can look at it and say, well, actually, I'm going to do, I'm going to do an, a activity right now instead of a C activity. And if I get to the C activities, that's great. But if I don't, that's also great. 

Yucca: Yeah. And so if you keep a journal or, you know, like a book of shadow kind of thing, this is a wonderful activity to do in the. And not just for the holidays, actually, this could, this is a great idea to do for many, many things, whether that's like your one-year plan or your, you know, by season, by season, whenever that is.

But especially now, when, so much, when we're asking so much of ourselves and other people are asking so much of a.

Mark: Yes. Yes. As, as we keep going back to over and over again, you know, this, this path is about joy. It's about a sense of place in the world and, and celebration and meaning. And if busy work or sense of obligation to others, swamp. Those feelings of meaning and joy and celebration, then something's out of balance and it needs to be fixed.

And this is a way that you can start to figure out what's really important to you and make those the priority. 

Yucca: Right.

Mark: So another thing that we were going to talk about is self care during this time. What's really weird. About people, is that at the times when they're most stressed are the times when they abandoned their self-care routines. And I know that this is true for me too. 

Yucca: Likewise.

Mark: really, really tempted, just not to do the daily things because, oh my dear, I don't have enough time. 

Yucca: Yeah, 

Mark: And. 

Yucca: or I'm so stressed. So I'm just gonna reach and open that can of cranberry sauce and eat it with a spoon. Right?

Mark: I've done that. And I admit it. I like cranberry sauce. It's good.

Yucca: I do too. It's it's a lot of sugar though.

Mark: It is a lot of sugar. Yes. it is. And this, of course, I'm speaking of sugar that can really kind of turn up the stress on the whole holiday, both through your own consumption of sugar and your kids' consumption of sugar. 

Yucca: You kids or your spouse 

Mark: yes. 

Yucca: the other driver, 

Mark: Yes. 

Yucca: right? Yeah. 

Mark: Right. So it's really important to be doing our, our, our daily observances to be taking time to center and ground to be going outside and having the sun dim and pale as it is right now, hit our face and know that it's another day and that we are here on planet earth and that we are part of the universe doing its thing. 

Yucca: Yeah.

Mark: And to go out and look at the stars, the

we've had amazing sunsets here recently, just super gorgeous. And then of course there are very bright planets in the sky right now as well. So it's been fun to see. 

Yucca: Over the next few weeks, the German ads. It should be spectacular. So one of the two really big meteor showers of the year, and these ones are wonderful because you don't have to wait until midnight to see them there. They're often visible during the evening hours as well. So, but you've got to brave the cold if you live somewhere where it's cold.

Mark: sure. Sure. 

Yucca: But there's something nice about that too. Bundling up and just feeling the cold nip on your face, but you're all warm inside of your. How many other layers of blankets and jackets you took out with you?

Mark: Right. Yeah, we'll be talking about

winter solstice as we, as we get closer to the holiday. And one of the things that has been traditional for my circle of people for a really long time is going outside and sitting in the cold in silence for about a half an hour. Before we do our usual ritual Just really experiencing, you know, it's cold out here and I'm dark.

And that's what the season is about. This is, this is what we're protecting ourselves from when we huddle in our nice warm houses and light our fires and all that kind of stuff. 

Yucca: Yeah.

Mark: So self care self care also has to do with regularly taking your internal temporary. You know, how am I doing? Am I feeling frazzled?

Or am I feeling like I'm on top of it? And yes, I'm moving. There's, they've got momentum, but I'm, I'm taking care of business and things feel pretty good. So check in with yourself two, three times a day, you know, where, how am I, and if I'm not doing well, then what can I do to change that? How can I grab 10 minutes to meditate? How can I eat a meal that isn't full of sugar, eat something that's, you know, got some protein and some fat in it. 

Yucca: bring you down and ground you.

Mark: Right. Exactly. Because one of the things that I've seen, people that are health conscious do with the holidays is VAT is kind of vacillate between sugar and vegetables. And that will not ground you at all. You know, some protein and fat in there in order to really get your, your digestive system going okay, we've got everything we need now. 

Yucca: Yeah.

Mark: So, you know, taking care of your diet, making sure that you are eating enough and 

Yucca: And sleeping. That's the other really, really big thing.

Mark: So. So important. And I know that it's really hard for folks that that can kind of perseverate about, oh God, tomorrow, I've got to go this and this and this and this and this and this or this thing.

Didn't go well today. And I wonder what so-and-so thinks about it and sort of spin really try if you get yourself caught in one of those two, just tell yourself, I have time to think about this. I'm not going to solve it now. It doesn't mean that it's not important. I'm not saying that it's not really worthy of serious attention, but right now I'm not going to solve any of it.

Cause it's three o'clock in the morning and it's time to go to sleep. 

Yucca: Yeah. And there's some visualizations that you can do or some kind of small rituals that, you know, finding something that works for you, but for some people having a literal drawer in the drawer, And opening that drawer up and imagine taking those worries out, taking those thoughts out, literally, you know, taking it from your head as if you were pulling it out like a string and then tucking it in the drawer and closing the drawer and promising that you're going to come back in the morning and then you'll get it.

When you get dressed. And that's something that or you could even wear it as a piece of jewelry, take the jewelry off and put it in the drawer and come back for it. And that's just doing something like that can give that extra little bit to help our, to help get the buy-in from that non-thinking part of ourselves.

Mark: It's a great idea. So taking care of yourself and that means keeping an eye on how much you're sleeping, how much you're eating, how much you're drinking, because there are lots of social occasions right now. So, and, you know, people tend to crack the booze open at these social occasions. So, you know, maybe it's some of them, you decide you don't want to do it.

Right. You're just not going to, or if you are going to then just being really aware overall of what your intake is being and certainly being very careful when it comes to getting in a car and all that kind of stuff, you know, make sure that you're safe and that the people with you are safe. 

Yucca: Right. And, and be aware of course, on the road of folks who may have not made those same decisions as you, 

Mark: Yeah. I mean, we all know that everybody else drives like an idiot. 

Yucca: Not us. Nope. 

Mark: but not 

Yucca: We're not. Yeah, 

Mark: we, we don't, but the rule is that in December, up through new years, people really drive like an idiot. 

Yucca: Yeah, really seriously. So especially new year's Eve and then here in my county so. We actually just passed this, but Thanksgiving, so Thanksgiving night and then sports games too. Right. But those can be really those times of year where people have had stuff to drink. They've been in party situations or they've been around families and emotions are high.

And those, those two particular nights. The most dangerous night of the year. So, so if he could avoid being on the road, then that's, you know, you never know when that choice actually did save your life 

Mark: right, 

Yucca: or someone else's.

Mark: Yeah.

I really try to be, to avoid being on the road on new year's Eve. And actually it's kind of ironic. It's like when, when the mayor I used to do new year's Eve parties, I felt like it was safer because the parties went until like five o'clock in the morning, because almost no one was on the road then, you know, people that had been drinking heavily were asleep by that point.

And we, we were a little bit better off rather than if we went at two, for example. But yeah, it's, I, I just, I prefer to stay at home. It's just not, not safe. So, you know, kind of being aware of your inputs and making sure that you're getting the kinds of things that will keep you healthy and balanced and on an even keel are all really important.

If you feel like you're getting a little out of control in some way. First of all, there, if you're really feeling like you're getting out of control in some way, and you need support, there are hotlines and call them hotlines and warm lines, call them. You don't have to be in a desperate situation in order to qualify for that support.

You can call them up and they'll talk to you and listen to what you're going through. And it'll be helpful. So, you

know, be aware of that. 

Yucca: you can text. 

Or that you can be texting with somebody. If, if the speaking on the phone is one of those things that that gets your heart rate going, and that wouldn't be helpful for you. There's still, there's still support that you can get without needing to be on the phone.

Yeah. And stepping away and taking a moment for yourself when things like that are happening, maybe he's going to a show. Great. You know, those things where you normally get to have a little bit of space, assuming you don't have a toddler. If you do that, I'm sorry. You don't have any space ever alone time, but assuming that you don't have a toddler, you usually get to use the bathroom or take a shower or something like that on your own.

And, and taking a, just a moment away to breathe, to look at, you know, go through that, read that prioritization and maybe stop and think about. some of the self care missing because we can often forget that the physical what's going on physically in our body has a huge impact on us emotionally on our ability to handle stress on our, how cranky we are, how, how we take common.

Right. So do we immediately jump to thinking that person was trying to be rude or do we assume good intent? A lot of that has to do with, with what's going on in our whole body, as animals, as creatures, not just what we think should be happening.

Mark: Right. Absolutely. So let's talk a little bit about kind of some scenarios. I mean, I'm, I'm thinking about the family gathering particularly because, you know, for most of us family gatherings or something, Are not really avoidable at this time of year. There's something that we have to do. And 

Yucca: something we want to do.

Mark: for those of you who are who enjoy that and have a, a good relationship with your families, congratulations, I'm really happy to hear that and go enjoy those.

But for those where it's stressful, either because. It's just a big press of loud people and you're introverted, and that is kind of hard for you, or because there are people there that you find problematic for whatever reason. Let's talk about some things that you can do at one of those events in order to kind of keep yourself balanced and. Make sure that you're in a, in a situation where when you leave, you feel good about how you conducted yourself and all that. The number one, one to me was always stepping outside. It's a lot quieter outside. You can sort of reground yourself by looking at what's there And saying there's a tree and there's a bench and there's a Bush.

And just sort of, you know, re anchor yourself in reality. Which can be very helpful and honestly, just standing or sitting for five or 10 minutes outside where it's much quieter and breathing can do wonders to lengthen your fuse and improve your, your capacity for enjoyment.

Yucca: And if you have a grounding practice, this is what you've been practicing for. Right? That's the, that's the thing with practices. You got to do them over and over so that when you need them. You can do it.

Mark: Right, right. Yeah.

And what I don't recommend is drinking to get through them. 'cause then you're just, you're more reactive. Your, your inhibitions are suppressed, so it's easier for you to make a snappy comeback that is very witty and incisive and escalates the situation when you really didn't want to. 

Yucca: Yeah,

Mark: So, and I know that that can be a problem in some families because there's this thing of, oh, we're all drinking. Why aren't you drinking kind of thing? Well, you don't have to give any excuses for not drinking or for drinking very little. You can, you can drink water or you can drink juice or 

Yucca: Or you could carry around that same bottle the whole time and kind of nurse it. 

Mark: Yes. 

Yucca: the one, you know? 

Mark: Right. 

Yucca: Right. And there are some things that you can do going into a situation to prepare yourself ahead of time. Again, going back to some of the visualizations where you know, you can. You can think about like shielding or imagining yourself like a Reed and the river, just bending over and letting the, letting the stress or the insults or whatever it is just flow right over you.

Mark: Sure. And, and don't forget your ritual practices. I mean, if you really feel you need protection from someone who's going to be at these gatherings, make yourself a protection amulet and wear it around your neck,

Yucca: Yeah.

Mark: you know, do do those ritual things that remind you that, that you, you have the power to be safe. And you can make that into something tangible to remind you of that and put it around your neck and, or in your pocket, whatever. And you'll, you'll find that it actually increases your, your level of confidence in doing that. 

Yucca: One thing that I like which depending on, on your cultural situation might not be available to every one of all genders, but painting your nails. As part of the ritual. I don't paint mine very often. Because I completely destroy it with, cause I use my hands too much within about two or three hours, they're gone.

But, but if you're going to a situation like that, you can pick a color. That's a little bit different. It's something that you're going to look down and see, and notice it's, if you don't normally wear the Polish or if it's a different than what color you normally do. And then it's just a reminder of a check-in ground or whatever it is you want it to be there.

It is on your hand.

Mark: Sure a bracelet can 

Yucca: That's another one. Yeah.

Mark: Something that, something so that it's within your field of vision you know, it could even be something, you know, pinned to the inside of your sleeve or something like that. But Any, any of a bunch of options. The main point is something to remind you. You know, I, I went through this process to remind myself that I have power in this situation. I'm not in danger. I'm going to be fine. And carry that with you. And I think you might find that You're able to avoid friction when it is, when it's offered to you. You're able to avoid those sticky situations.

We haven't actually talked about, you know, the racist uncle trope that, that can be a really hard one because, you know, as, as people who are activist minded, we feel called not to let that sort of thing slide My, my approach to that kind of situation where I'm, you know, I'm in somebody else's house.

I, you know, I really don't want to mess up their gathering by picking a fight is just to say to someone who says something that's awful, I really disagree with that. And then to walk away, 

Yucca: Yeah.

Yeah, I think it's, I mean, each one of these situations is going to be so different that it's hard to say, you know, how. How one would respond in that situation. But if you think that you may have that situation coming up, practicing it ahead of time of how to respond in just role-playing it out in your mind can be helpful in deciding ahead of time, what the approaches that you want to have so that you just are in a more prepared place.

So that if that's the choice, if that's the way that you'd like to respond, then you're prepared to respond that way. And you're not just completely caught off guard, 

Mark: right? 

Yucca: right? Yeah.

Mark: And you know, it's, it's perfectly reasonable for you to decide that you're not willing to go to a setting where you're going to be exposed to that kind of, you know, abusive bigoted kind of thought. 

Yucca: Yeah.

Mark: And I know that it can be hard to negotiate that with family sometimes because, well, you know, uncle Ralph, everybody knows about uncle Ralph, but he doesn't mean any harm, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

But you don't have to hold yourself into that situation if you don't want to. And you are not under any obligation to put your children or anybody else in your family in that situation either. So. You know, know that I, it, it takes, it takes some, some courage and some grit to be willing to put your foot down and say, if he's there, I'm not going, 

but you do have the power to do that.

You're a, you're a free and sovereign being. 

Yucca: Yeah. And that, and you get to decide for yourself those lines are, where those boundaries are. And. That's right.

Mark: Yes. So meanwhile, after you've been to the, the awkward family gathering, then you can come home and now you're in your environment. And you get to decide, as we've talked about before, what your activities are going to be, what your rituals are going to be. Which days you're going to celebrate, because boy, December is just full of them.

But the winter solstice is sort of the. Central operating principle of all of them. Originally. This is just the time of year when people ate everything that was about to go bad huddled together for warmth. And God happy that the days were starting to get longer again. 

Yucca: Yeah.

Mark: Okay. 

Yucca: So they just still on that family gathering. If you're someone who like myself. I'm quite an introvert. I find social gatherings, really very challenging, but having something prepared to come home to is really helpful. Even if it's the, you know, my bathrobe that is hanging on the hook and you know, I go and I change into my bathroom.

You know, cozy sleep pants or something like that. It can be, it can be really helpful just to signal that, that shift that, okay, now that is done, you know, closing that and now I'm transitioning into whatever it is that the letting letting go of all of that in. People energy, whether it was a good energy or not, you know, just letting go of that and moving, moving situations and going, okay, now, now what let's move on.

Mark: Right. 

Yucca: And for every person that's going to, that's going to be different, what it would be for you or whether that's even necessary, you know, but just kind of tuning in with yourself to check out what is it that you need, and what's gonna help you in these situations.

Mark: Oh, I just remembered something. I was going to say about the family gatherings as well. Working out a plan with a partner is a great idea. Ways that you can signal one another. You know, I've reached my limit. I got to go. 

Yucca: Or come get me out of this 

Mark: yeah. You know, please come over here and change the co the change, the subject or, you know, grab me and say that you need me for a minute and drag me away.

You know, just having, having a plan for how you can support one another is, is really a great thing about a partnership. And so it's something else that you can, you can do for getting yourself through those, those challenging situations. 

Yucca: Yeah. That's a really good point that if you do have someone with you where you can, you can be a team. 

Mark: Right, right, right. And of course it bears saying that for all those folks out there that are polyamorous and have multiple partners, but they can only bring one to the family gathering because everybody would freak out. We're really sorry. That's just really an ugly situation and things are evolving, but they're not evolving fast enough. 

Yucca: Great. Yeah. And then, and looking at that there's of course the other side, we've been talking about the story of going to the big family gathering, but there's a lot of people. That's not going to be the situation for them, right. Where for whatever reason, you know, they don't have that family or they aren't on good terms or they're far away or whatever it is.

And then there can be that pressure coming from everything around us about how you're supposed to be doing that. And there's all of these activities you're supposed to be doing. I think that some of the advice we were talking about before is really helpful for that too, of stepping back and going, well, what do I want out of this?

And how do I get that? Right. Do I, you know, what, what is important? Do I want to have that feeling of the gathering and if so, how do I get that? Right. And if not, what is it about solstice? What is it about this time of year? That is what I want.

Mark: right, right, exactly. So, Yeah.

and I mean, I'm in that situation, I don't deal with my blood family at all. I have chosen family, but not, not blood family. And it can nag a little bit at this time of year, you know, at this time of year, when it's supposed to be all families, all being warm with one another, you know, w that, that can kind of great to realize that their, to that we're not talking to one another. 

Yucca: Yeah.

Mark: Over time, it's become much more comfortable. And some of that is because I've created the family that actually would care about me. And some of it is that I've gotten more used to doing things alone as well. You know, a lot of the, a lot of the rituals that I celebrate during the various Sabbath.

So things that I do by myself and I, I enjoy them. They they're meaningful. 

Yucca: Yeah,

Mark: So did we have more on a self care at the holidays? 

Yucca: I think we've, we've jumped around and talked about a lot of things, but I think that we've covered most of it here. Right? Talking about there's preparing yourself ritually, looking at what you want, what, what you really value taking care of yourself. Physically as well, you know, getting outside for a little bit, not overloading yourself on the foods that you know aren't going to do well in your body.

Sleep, all of those things. 

Mark: Right. Oh, and I guess that I should also mention because we talked about support a little bit. This can be a really tough time of year for people who are sober. And, you know, for, for folks who have been sober for a long time, may maybe they're not going, or maybe they never went to AA meetings before, or because they just quit another way.

Apparently is not particularly more effective than. Quitting other ways. But you might 

Yucca: of different things for many different personalities and

Mark: Exactly. and so availing yourself of some of that support at this time of year may be really helpful. You know, if, if you have a sobriety buddy now may be a time to get together with them and kind of reaffirm your, your commitment to staying sober and. Just, you know, for all of you out there listening to us, we, we care about you and we want you to care about yourselves. You know, this is this is a time that's a little bit buck and alien and it's possible for people to get lost in that. and we, we don't want anybody to get lost. So, 

Yucca: yeah. 

Mark: so next week, Oh, ahead.

Yucca: Oh, well please continue. Go in the same place.

Mark: next week we have two guests who along with a Yucca can speak to raising pagan and children and, you know, paganism within the family. And we're, I'm just so looking forward to this conversation, I think it's going to be great, even though I won't have much to contribute to it. And 

Yucca: I bet you'll have some insightful questions though. 

Mark: Yes. I'm sure I can ask questions. I just won't have any answers, 

Yucca: But it, this will also be our largest podcast in terms of the most number of people on at once. 

Mark: Right. We're going to have four. So, that's it's we'll we'll see how it works. 

Yucca: Yeah. I'm excited for it. And then of course, after that, we are almost at the solstice, so we'll be getting into some of the different sides about that.

Mark: Right. Right. So in the meantime happy holidays, whichever ones you celebrate to all of you. And we hope that that this has been helpful. And we'll see you again next week on the wonder science-based paganism.